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Comments
sucks by: Anonymous on 11/13/2009
This is a nvidiot site.. ever since i started reading stuff from here..
by: Anonymous on 11/9/2009
*Especially* because of DX9 it needs NVAPI. DX9 doesn't support custom MSAA resolve, as Tim Sweeney also explains in the article.

Aside from that, the game supports both DX9 and DX10 APIs.

There are in fact references to NVAPI in the executable.
it works quite well by: Anonymous on 11/9/2009
It's a DX9 game, so no problem with NVAPI extension. 5 minutes with a hex-editor and you have MSAA enabled for ATI/AMD users (or S3 or Intel or whatever GPU you have) and the game runs quite well on a 5870 with MSAA.
by: Anonymous on 11/6/2009
Does anyone know HOW nVidia implemented the MSAA in Batman: AA?
Namely nVidia's DX10 hardware does support the DX10.1 multisample buffer readback feature, via their NVAPI extension.

If they use NVAPI, then indeed ATi can't use their code as-is, and Eidos can't make any guarantees about the correctness or stability of the code on ATi hardware, since they don't support NVAPI obviously.

In that case, it could accidentally work by hacking the vendor ID detection because NVAPI silently fails, and since ATi hardware supports DX10.1 anyway, it 'accidentally' works.
If my theory is right, then Batman: AA will crash on a Radeon 2900 series card, because they don't support DX10.1.
So it would mean that at least there should be a special path for 'real' DX10 hardware, and nVidia using the NVAPI path, and then there should be a 'clean' DX10.1 path rather than the NVAPI path 'accidentally' working on DX10.1 hardware.
In that case, nVidia would be right, and ATi would be wrong in claiming that nVidia's AA could should 'just work'.

This isn't a unique situation by the way. Far Cry 2 uses an AA approach with multisample buffer readback through DX10.1 or NVAPI on nVidia DX10 hardware.
Quantity killed quality by: Anonymous on 11/6/2009
Great story, but the writing quality sucks. You could have done this in half the words. Lot's of typos. I can write better while drinking. An excellent subject to write about and it seemed very fairly done, which is always to be appreciated.

Morals of the story:
ATI needs to step up developer support
Nvidia needs a little less Machiavelli
One hour by: Anonymous on 11/6/2009
It took me one whole hour to read the entire article. Mr. Valich, this is the best article I've read in 2009, please keep on delivering such insights.
oh wait by: Anonymous on 11/5/2009
did you say MSAA works on Xbox 360?
so it works on ATI hardware :P
it should have NO problem working on ATI Hardware on the PC
by: Kyocera on 11/5/2009
Theo, you could write novels; for big money.
I must admit, that your narrative is pure suspense and very fluid.

You're invaluable; you're contributing your free time, efforts and energy, to make light on matters that are impossible to comprehend without extensive research and specialistic knowledge.

As far as this story goes, I can only say, that it has become clear there were many factors involved; a developer with scarce resources, a publisher that wanted to save money on the development, ATI that had other priorities and Nvidia that invested a lot of efforts.
It's true that Nvidia could have done all the work and enable ATI's technology.
If Nvidia's marketing would be adept, they would have done the above and use the matter for the marketing; the community would profit and Nvidia also.
However, we all know how good Nvidia's marketing is (just remember their renaming politics).

Theo, could you give a look at the Hydra matter?? I, and many others, are interested in the multi-GPU (same vendor) setup, without the SLI/Crossfire drop of performance and the limitations of the Intel's 1156 strategy (making impossible more than one X16 line); if Intel pushes this to new chips, how are we supposed to combine two GT300???
Not talking, that it would be nice to have a completely upgradable PC; 4 full x16 lines that can be upgraded in the course of 2 years, just adding one GT300 after another, without the drop in performance that makes such a possibility impossible because of Nvidia's SLI (or Crossfire)limitations (frame rendering and not data streaming).
by: Anonymous on 11/4/2009
oh god everyone posting is nuts.

anyway I think that AMD is doing the right thing, It's not the hardware dev's place to help make games. It's the job of the dev, DX APIs are there for them to use and they shouldn't have to rely on software engineers from either company to go in and write biased code.

I'm all for having them send devs free GPU's and stuff, that's just helping game companies who don't have the cash and it doesn't stop the other company from sending their own cards to ensure that they're treated fairly.


What if AMD and Nvidia both sent devs, wouldn't you think the code would clash insanely? Would they even be able to work together without coming to a standstill on vendorID's?

I think it's best to let the devs handle development, not some special interest engineer looking to sabotage the game for the good of his company.

I mean I ain't a dev, I know a bunch of people from tripwire interactive and they absolutely love Nvidia, but then again they get the latest cards and engineer support.
by: Anonymous on 11/4/2009
Man this article ruled A+++ would read again
by: Anti-DRMintosh on 11/4/2009
Sounds like you didn't read the story.

$vidia is locking out ATI users simply through the use of a vendor-id check.

Change the vendor id of your video card to $vidia, boom, you've got in-game AA.

ATI tried to work with Eidos to get AA implemented but since this is a TWIMTBP game, they had a snowball's chance in hell.

$vidia is an a$$hole corporation.

DumbF*** users keep giving money to a$$hole corporation, thus they have NO incentive to play by the rules.

Keep giving them money if you like their behavior or deny them if you want companies to code only for DirectX/OpenGL.
blah by: Anonymous on 11/4/2009
it sounds like Ati letting Nvidia do all the work to get things working. then cry foul when it doesn't work on Ati hardware.
but its all good now right? Ati stopped being lazy and wrote code to make AA work in Batamn: AA
by: Anti-DRMintosh on 11/4/2009
ISRAEL and INTEL

http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-intel.html

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/intel-inside/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drpB9sLut8U

http://www.bing.com/search?q=israel+spying+usa+america&go=&form=QBRE&qs=n


Tons of Israeli spying on america. Over the years not ONE arab/muslim has ever spied on the USA.

Israel has stolen secrets that are extremely damaging to american national security.

They have secret backdoors in ALL phones/communication equipment in the United States.

Cost to america:

http://www.bing.com/search?q=israel+cost+to+america&go=&form=QBRE&qs=n

Yeah, it's those darn Ay-Rabs.

Investing billions upon billions into the US, while Israel extracts 10's of billions every year in direct "loans", military aid, etc. (not a single penny has been paid back, congress keeps forgiving those "loans").

Ay-Rabs, AL QUEDA...


http://www.bing.com/search?q=israel+art+students&go=&form=QBRE&qs=n
by: Anti-DRMintosh on 11/4/2009
[URL]http://www.bing.com/search?q=al+qaeda+does+not+exist&filt=all[/URL]
by: Anonymous on 11/4/2009
wore you on the same USS carrier as those guys:

http://www.youtube.com/user/AMDUnprocessed#p/a/u/2/mlxILZuCb-g
Anti-DRMintosh by: Anonymous on 11/4/2009
First of all im not a nvidia or amd/ati fan but what I am is a realist AMD/ATI were given money by an arab company/person they invested in AMD and and pretty much saved them and now own a good part of that company, the arabs are a very good part of why we are fighting Al-Qaeda they find there operation and the arabs were a big part of 9/11 because of that.... we already give the arabs enough money through oil stop supporting them through AMD/ATI buy anything but there products or any arab company they invest in. Im sure this post will be taken down but hope it get to some before it is!!
Dev support rules. by: Anonymous on 11/4/2009
First of I would like to thank Theo for all the time it took to put this article together - it actually took some time to read too.

However I feel that a 5 page article over this issue is "milking the story".

I am pro developer help and from your article it is clear that Nvidia does a great job in supporting developers and even new unproven startups. Amd uses less ressources on this and tend to cry foul quickly.
I too do not like a vendor-lock in game software but I do think that it could be justified if it was believed at the time that it would provide the highest level of stability for all GPU's. Eidos can release a patch with code from AMD when they get around to build it - it should not take so long if it is so important.

However since the games can be supported with AA from the control panel then why all the fuss about this discussion in the first place.

BTW: Quakelive rules and we need support for the Chrome browser. Now write an article about that (-;
by: Anti-DRMintosh on 11/4/2009
$vidia is a monopolist anti-consumer piece of $hit.

The sooner they die, the better for the industry.

If a company cannot fairly compete, they need to FOAD!
AMD/ATI SUCK by: Anonymous on 11/4/2009
AMD/ATI SUCKS ALWAYS HAS ALWAYS WILL FOR THE MOST PART THEY DONT INVENT ANYTHING COPY OTHER PRODUCTS...LOOK AT THE NEW ATI CARDS THE FAN HOUSING LOOKS LIKE NVIDIAS OF A FEW YRS AGO JUST ONE SMALL POINT MANY MORE DONT FEEL LIKE TYPING.
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