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Friday, March 19, 2010
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Buyer Beware: Zune HD Software bills you $50 without notice - NO refund!



You know, Microsoft is a company that is capable of amazing products. However they continually fail miserably when it comes to understanding the market they are selling to. Is this geeky legacy from Mr. Gates era or not - we're unsure off. But the facts are as they stand.

As an example let's take a look at their latest offering the Zune HD. As a hardware device it is simply amazing. I have been testing out the one we have here and think it is hands down better as a portable media player than the iPod touch. We will be releasing our review of this soon.

However, on the software side it is another matter. When I first looked at the New Zune 4.0 Software I was impressed. It is clean fast and intuitive. I liked it better than iTunes. That was until this morning.

You see I logged in and found a $50 charge for 4000 points on my account. I did not buy any points. I did not click on anything that said that my credit card would be charged. It was just there. Normally to buy points you have to click on a "Buy Points" button and something should pop-up telling you that a charge is going to be applied to your card [including the amount] I called the Zune Support line and was told they could not do anything about it. They told me they could not refund anything because their system did not have that option. They also told me that any purchase will have a pop up asking if you agree to it. When I explained that I did not purchase anything they did not seem to understand or grasp the problem. In fact at one point I was actually told that if the Zune Software had any problems they would have "already found them and fixed them."


Click to Enlarge

So I tried to spell it out. I proposed a situation where my child was on the account using the free music service and they accidentally purchased something. I was then told "they could not because you have to sign in first and have a credit card."

Now here is the funny thing. To use the free Zune Music [which is all over the box AND in the marketing materials] you have to have a Zune Pass. To get a Zune Pass you have to provide a credit card and have a Live ID. To use the free music you have to be signed in. At that point you are pretty much open to having your bank drained by a few clicks.

When I complained that I could not find any parental controls I was told they were easy to find and then put on hold for 6 minutes while they searched for them. They told me they were easily found on Zune.net. But yet none of the searches they game me yielded anything.

 

Click to Enlarge

I then searched outside Zune.net and found one article that explained them. Basically to get any type of parental controls you have to have a parent account and child account. This means at least two live IDs, one of which your child will now be able to use to get on Live Messenger, Live Mail and a host of other potentially unsafe programs. Now on top of this extra [and hard to find] step, there are no protections inside the actual software to prevent unauthorized purchases unless you have multiple accounts. So there are no easily set up protections nothing to control the purchases on your new Zune account, and Microsoft will not lift a finger to help out a parent that might find themselves the victim of an accidental click by a child or a malfunction of the software.

This is a perfect example of why MS fails so badly with many of their products. Parents will not want the annoyance of multiple accounts just to make sure their kids do not over spend. They will simply not buy the product. Microsoft needs to make it easier to access and use these controls or they will doom the Zune HD to failure simply because no one wants to deal with the software.


Editor's take

Reading through this article only made me wonder what in the world was Microsoft thinking. There is no other way to call this $50 deduction anything else but a robbery. Yes, there is no doubt that you're going to spend money on Zune Marketplace, because the apps, music and movies there are simply too good to miss. BUT, to literally steal money from you without authorization is as close to Nigerian scam as it can be.

During the call with support, Sean was told that cannot refund you if things go awry. It is very easy to conclude that if mistakes happen, Microsoft Support won't have an option to compensate you for their fault. Any sort of financial transaction involves confidence from both parties that the other will be fair and correct. If we add the fact that Zune as a platform is practically an USA-only affair, it is easy to understand where Microsoft fails compared to the competition.


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Comments:

by: Anonymous on 3/19/2010
Honestly I can't agree that multiple accounts are a bad thing. Sharing an account can lead to a host of problems, like not having seperate email adresses, or seperate achievements, scores and friends lists in video games or social networking. The dual account solution is elegant and allows the account to automatically migrate from child status based on date of birth, carrying over everything from e-mails to purchased music and contacts lists. In fact I believe if someone minor creates a Live account they will be forced to add a parental account. And i can only say this: if messenger is an "unsafe" program you are a draconically terrible father.
by: Anonymous on 1/28/2010
Regardless as to how many times this may have happened, it's surprising that MS CAN'T refund money. Not they they didn't want to, but that they can't. That's odd, to say the least.

I use iTunes, and somehow, my account was hacked. I got charges for two $50 gift certificates.

Not only did Apple refund me the money on the spot, they called me back with information about what happened, what they had done to fix it, and a new account number so that it wouldn't happen again. They took me at my word that the account was hacked, because there was no real way to tell.

I would think that MS would have at least the same ability and interest to help.
WoW by: Anonymous on 1/26/2010
I was going to post my experience with this product but after seeing the comments posted regarding Sean's article I guess I won't....
and Sean: thanks for actually responding to input. I do not see that as a negative.
Really? by: Anonymous on 12/3/2009
Nice try on fooling us. Key facts are missing here, such as was it your kids who actually did it? You pose a hypothetical situation how the account 'could' be used wrong. You never answer how it did go wrong. A company cannot be responsible for misuse of the software when it was not intended. An editor's note about how this came about after you interrogated your children would be nice. I know of no company that will refund your money, least of all Apple, when you make a mistake. By the way, at least with Zune pass you can listen to music you have downloaded after you lose it, I cannot say the same for the countless iTunes tracks that have been lost over the years thanks to the atrocious DRM Apple used for so long.
surprised by: Anonymous on 11/20/2009
i find this real surprising - i have a zune hd as do some of my friends, and you're the only one i know who has had such an issue..
i-Tunes and Firefox by: Sean Kalinich on 10/21/2009
in iTunes I can be logged in and still require a user name and password for purchases. This is not the case with Zune. You have to turn on 1-click purchasing to get that it is not on by default.

I can also (and do) turn off the auto fill in Firefox.

The difference is with both of those pieces of software you have those options.

In the Zune Desktop software you do not.
or... by: Anonymous on 10/18/2009
Or consider another scenario...using the auto-fill feature in your browser such as Firefox that automatically remembers and fills your account login and password on forms. Presto, someone is purchasing stuff or authorizing charges without ever having to actually know your account credentials, even when prompted for them.

This is what different user profiles are for, have you just discovered them?
moron by: Anonymous on 10/18/2009
The same thing can happen if you let your kids (or anyone else) use your iTunes account with the "1-click" purchase feature setup through the iTunes store.

The same thing can happen at numerous online shopping portals, if your kids (or anyone else) are using the same computer and user profile that you use to do your shopping. Amazon.com, for example, allows persistent account login and 1-click shopping with no password or additional credential prompts (since your last visit).

Are you entirely f-cking new to the online world of commerce? And if so, what the Holy F-ck are you doing writing for a technology rag? Christ!
@ Misinformation by: Sean Kalinich on 10/16/2009
You cannot share a Zunepass between accounts.

It is not active, they can only listen to the music you download on the main Zune Account (the one with the CC attached). This is exactly what I meant by parents will not want to manage multiple accounts.

This needs to be changed. It is important to have these items in place as this is the market that the Zune HD is being pushed to. I cannot understand why MS would leave this out considering all of the flak that Apple took over their crappy parental controls. You would think that if they want to compete they would have put a lot more effort into this.

@Chargeback by: Sean Kalinich on 10/16/2009
I have issued a Chargeback (officially Disputing the Charge), My bank has credited me the $50 provisionally. They have to contact the MS and the company that runs the billing for the Xbox Live System. Once they respond I may need to follow on with a signed statement if they dispute my claims. If not I will get the money back. The unfortunate thing is that this can take up to 90 days to complete.

Chargeback by: Anonymous on 10/15/2009
Hi Sean, please issue a chargeback with your credit company, and end this story with a happy ending. I, for one, would like to get an update if you do. It's about principle.
Anything from MS should be suspect by: Anonymous on 10/14/2009
Buyer Beware is the mantra whenever dealing with Micro$oft, anything Micro$oft
by: Anonymous on 10/13/2009
I've got several friends who bought Zune HDs and downloaded Zune softwares. They all have xbox live accounts that they transferred to Zune accounts (complete with credit card infomation) and they still haven't been billed anything (we buy our Xbox live subscriptions online because it's cheaper)

Either your computer is hacked or you just did so unknowingly. i have never encountered such a situation (amongst hundreds of friends with original zune software and zune hd software or itunes software) where they were billed unknowingly.

if your problem was widespread, then it would probably be all over the news by now. (just like the xbox 360 failures) I would say that your article is either your own fault somewhere or just a small isolated incident.
Misinformation with Zune Pass! by: Anonymous on 10/7/2009
Hello,

You are actually wrong about being forced to sign in to the main account with CC to listen to the music that was brought via ZunePass. I do it all the time to simulate having multiple users on a single ZunePass.

I'm in Washington, and my dad lives in Wisconsin. Basically once every 30 days he has to log in to my account, which will refresh the music license tied to the computer (assuming it's one of the 5 computers you can have on a ZunePass). After that, you can log into any profile that you'd like (this way I won't have his music showing up as being played through my account!). The downside is that whenever you want to go download new music, you will have to be signed into that main account, so this is where your kids should ask you when they want to get music.

Therefore, this is what you should do. Set up Zune on up to 5 computers that you want to be able to access the computer. Log into the main account with CC at least once (you may have to try to download a music file). After that's all set up, leave your profile on the computers but disable auto-login, and have it so you have to login with your password. After that, let your kids go nuts with their own profile! They won't be able to buy anything using your account now, and can listen to all of the ZunePass music! You will still have to help them with downloading music, but that way you can monitor everything to make sure they don't accidently charge your account.

Hopefully MS makes multiple users on a single ZunePass easier in the future!
by z by: Anonymous on 10/7/2009
Looks to me like most Anonymous posts are made by same person. Please check and ban IP/class if neccesary.
It would be a good ideea to disable Anonymous posting alltoghether, so this troll stops spamming.
Eh by: Anonymous on 10/3/2009
Buyer beware? I've not heard of this problem ANYWHERE else. It seems to be a VERY limited problem, limited to you.

Maybe it was a bug, if that's the case, call your credit card whatever and dispute the charge. Just about every credit card company will gladly remove it for you if you didn't authorize it.

More likely, you screwed something up, even if you don't understand how you did it.
Call your credit card company and dispute it by: Michael A. McKenney on 10/1/2009
If I did not agree to it, I would dispute it with my credit card and ask to have it removed. Better solution is don't buy the product until they remove that charge.
...xbox live... by: Anonymous on 9/27/2009
Xbox live is just as bad. I had to make a password to log in, but there's nothing that stops a child from pushing buttons and buying anything they want when you decide to go get a drink.

Defective by design, imho. Not to mention, you can't disable or cancel any subscriptions until you actually call them up. Of course, most places are this way, but Microsoft does it with insatiable skill.

Nonetheless, Microsoft got me a few times when my kids (who can't even read), downloaded games and such. They got me... but after that I knew better. I'm sure you know the same.

People that are flaming you need to realize that you're giving everyone a heads-up so the same doesn't happen to them. It's probably already happened to those with kids. On the other hand, the title is a bit misleading and brings out the trolls.

Mat B.
@Fail by: Sean Kalinich on 9/27/2009
The Zune HD is amazing hardware, hands down the best PMP I have worked with. The Zune 4.0 Software is clean, fast and inutitive; however there are a number of bugs that need to be fixed before the software is ready to compete.
Fail by: Anonymous on 9/25/2009
The Zune has sucked since day one. I have had mine 2 years, and it won't work with Vista at all. The software is glitchy and takes a ton of computer processing to run, and that's just with the old versions.

Also you really need to mention that the 4.0 software rarely installs properly - check the official Zune forum for confirmation - and it's just the usual... Micro$oft releases more trash for us to download. Yay. I have talked a lot of people out of buying ANY type of Zune because of how horrible they are. I hate Apple too, so I'm looking for something else to buy.
@Lashing out by: Sean Kalinich on 9/25/2009
I do not feel that replying to someone calling me biased without reading any of my other articles is lashing out. Most site the authors do not reply at all. I am sure you would reply to unfounded accusations if one was made about you.

As for most of the actual comments, I have the right (and I use it) to reply to false accusations of bias towards any product. As well as point to other articles to show my record of fair and unbiased journalism.

It is also apparent from many of the comments that the commenter is not reading the article or at least not the entire article.

For example the ones claiming that I hate the product when I expressly state that I think the Zune HD hardware is hands down better than the iPod Touch/ iPhone 3G S.

I have contacted my bank they are in the process of charging this back to MS. They are the ones that told me this was a common occurrence with Zune, Xbox Live and Mobile Marketplace.

Simply giving your kids a Live ID opens up Messenger, Hotmail, and a ton of other single sign-on web based products from MS.
It is not the answer here. Having better implemented controls is. Again it goes back to the target market. PMPs are marketed to teens and pre-teens, Microsoft needs to understand this and adjust accordingly.

Buyer Beware is a heading, the title is "Zune HD Software bills you $50 without notice - NO refund!"


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