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Friday, March 19, 2010
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nVidia GF100 Fermi silicon cost analysis



With the architectural previews hitting the wire this week, we took the time to actually look at potential cost of the GF100-based solutions and where the Fermi silicon stands right now. Our respected colleague Wolfgang Hegel provided us with the mockup of the TSMC's 300mm wafer containing GF100 dies. As you can see in the image below, according to our estimates, nVidia can fit 94 GF100 chips on a single 300mm wafer as TSMC is able to make them.

Mockup shot of GF100 on 300mm wafer. Picutre Credit: Wolfgang Hegel
Mockup shot of GF100 on 300mm wafer. Picutre Credit: Wolfgang Hegel

Our original data cited that nVidia is able to put 130 dies on a single wafer but after learning the size of the chip [our sources estimate the die size at 24x23mm or 24x24mm], it was obvious that the chip was designed with the limitations of the original GT200 in mind, which was manufactured using TSMC's 65nm node. If our sources are correct, GF100 comes with the die size almost identical to the GT200, at 570-571mm2. Long story short, one wafer should fit no more than 94 of these bad boys.

TSMC sells chips in two ways: you can purchase the whole wafer, in which the cost per die can get as low as possible - but you're responsible for the yields in question. Second mode is purchasing dies alone, i.e. you pay much more per single die but ultimately - you don't care what the yield is. Most of TSMC customers chose either one or another but with clients as big as AMD and nVidia are - those pricing models change on product range. However, in terms of die size and overall number wafers, nobody comes close to these two. Our sources claim that in case of GPU dies such as Cypress and GF100, both AMD and nVidia are ordering per wafer and they're paying around $5000 per single wafer manufactured on 40nm Performance node.

This information gave us invaluable insight into the reasons why GF100 ended up delayed by a quarter, getting pushed from November 2009 to March 2010. First of all, TSMC screwed the pooch badly and the foundry wasn't able to offer higher yields than 40% on their 40nm process node for better part of 2009. While Foundry execs claim that the yields of 40nm process reached the level of yields 65nm process had, the fact of the matter is that lies true on ASIC per ASIC basis. There are chips that yield excellently, and there are chips that yield horribly. Unfortunately, a complex design from AMD is currently having better yields than a less-complex part, thus we're not surprised that AMD is considering 2010 as a transitional year before the beginning of the switch to GlobalFoundries.

In the case of nVidia GF100, the best they can expect at 40nm is 60% yield. Realistic goal is 40% and nVidia is going to end up with 24x24mm die costing $131 [40% yield] and in fairy tale land, nVidia is going to pay only $87 per chip. Now, if nVidia would have to pay $131 for a single GF100 - that would not be that bad, given the current cost of single AMD Cypress die is $96. For as long as you're under $100 per die, you can count your blessings with TSMC's 40nm process. Reality is that AMD can easily reach 60-70% yields with Cypress and they will drive the cost of a single Cypress ASIC to  anywhere between $54-64 [70 to 60% yield]. Thus, cost advantage AMD, no matter what happens. 

This is where the issue happened with this three billion transistor monster of a die. The yield of initial A1 silicon resulted in only nine working dies per wafer [which was the source of false rumor of 2% yield - in reality, 2% yield would be 1-2 dies per wafer], i.e. less than 10%. If we take a figure of $5000 per single wafer, the yield of around 10 percent put a price of single NV100 chip to around $550. With only Tesla businesses able to support that chip price [Quadro could sustain up to $350 per die and remain profitable], it was obvious that A2 revision was the way to go. Unfortunately, A2 revision didn't come up with necessary yield increase. According to our sources, nVidia achieved a 25% yield with A2 silicon, coming up with around 24-26 functional dies per wafer. This puts the cost of a single chip into the $208 range, i.e. you can get 4.2 billion transistors [2x Cypress, i.e. HD 5970] for the price of a single three billion die and buy the cooling and the PCB. In case of nVidia, you still need to build the whole enchilada around the $208 piece of silicon.

Truth to be told, given that GF100 will probably beat both HD 5870 and HD 5970 in Tessellation and consumes less power than a HD 5970 - this isn't as bad as we thought the first time we did the numbers game. Then again, AMD did ship over two million DX11 cards to date with nVidia shipping none.

What is important for the price of the die is the end price for the consumer. While nVidia will find tests in which it beats both the single and dual-GPU HD 5870 and the HD 5970, going with the $599 price tag would be suicide in this economy. We expect to see a price of $549 or $499 for the high end part, probably named "GeForce 380" and $349-399 for the "GeForce 360". The problem is that a $200+ die is killing any margin on the part and nVidia cannot price themselves out of the market. Thus, we expect to see Quadro and Tesla business significantly subsidizing for the price of desktop GeForce boards, at least until nVidia gets its yields into the 40% range. The good part about nVidia and 40nm is that again, according to the sources in the know - the company currently also has one of highest yielding 40nm parts on the market, the 2nd generation Tegra. Tegra uses 40nm low-power process though, so it is not directly comparable to Cypress or GF100.

nVidia Tegra 2nd Gen: Allegedly very good yields at 40nm process
nVidia Tegra 2nd Gen: Allegedly very good yields at 40nm process - then again, this is not a small die either.

AMD has a significant advantage because of almost a year of experience working with 40nm process and they know all the quirks, while nVidia's decision to be really conservative with the manufacturing process is now coming to haunt them.

nVidia ramped up the GF100 manufacturing and is now getting ready for the launch. We know that mass production of GF100 boards will initialize in first week of February, with other AIB partners following in second, third and fourth week of February. However, we don't expect that GeForce lineup will be nVidia's bread and butter. Not this time around.


Update #1 January 21, 2010 23:10 GMT - In order to clarify the article, we've added information about Cypress die estimates and running costs. We also cleared the confusion in unit sizes, since we ran a wrong one [2.4cm equals 24, not 240mm]. We apologize for confusion that ensued.


© 2009 - 2010 Bright Side Of News*, All rights reserved.



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Comments:

by: Anonymous on 2/11/2010
"In Q2 2011 AMD Will Interduce It's 6000 Series GPUs Using A Brand New Architecture"

Exactly. After the 5000 series, which is just the 4000 series with DX11 Part 2, AMD has nothing for a whole 12 months or more. nVIDIA is already planning its next cards based on Fermi. Not just a die shrink with clock bumps a la Phenom to Phenom II (65nm to 45nm). Where's your 32nm AMD? How can you compete with Intel's 32nm and still hold your price/performance title? You can't, and you lost it.

"By Q4 2010 AMD Will Refresh It's 40nm Evergreen GPU Familiy By Intreducing 32nm Models In The Evergreen Familiy."

Yup, just like their roadmap said... nothing new til 2011. Just more of the 4870 to 4890-type refreshes.

Now onto their CPU's. How much more are they gonna push Phenom II? The upcoming 975 is gonna be a whopping 140w!!! I remember when the AMD fanboys were bashing the Pentium 4 EE for its 130w TDP. Now the tables have turned. AMD is the hotter and under performning chip clock for clock versus Core 2 Quad. Not even the Core i series. Go review the Phenom II 965 vs the Q9550(s) yourself and see.

I'd suggest the AMD fanboys not look at the NEW price/performance king, the Core i5 750. It might cause desperate ramblings with no merit in retaliation.
GF100 will kick 5890 too by: Anonymous on 1/28/2010
Just wait and see - it's not far.
by: Anonymous on 1/28/2010


AMD ATi Radeon HD 5890
- Codename RV890 "Cypress XTX".
- 2.6 Billion transistors on TSMC 40nm process.
- 24 SIMD Cores.
- Each SIMD Core Has 16 5D (Vec4+1) Processing Units (IEEE754-2008, FP32+FP64 MADD/FMA).
- 384 5D (Vec4+1) Processing Units at 875MHz .
- 1920 ALUs In Total.
- FP32 MADD/FMA : 1920 Ops/Clock.
- FP64 MADD/FMA : 384 Ops/Clock.
- SP (FP32) MADD/FMA Rate : 3.36 Tflops.
- DP (FP64) MADD/FMA Rate : 672 Gflops.
- 96 Texture Address Units (TA).
- 96 Texture Filtering Untis (TF).
- INT8 Bilinear Texel Rate : 84 Gtexels/s
- FP16 Bilinear Texel Rate : 42 Gtexels/s
- 48 Raster Operation Units (ROPs).
- ROP Rate : 42 Gpixels.
- 875MHz Core.
- 384 bit Memory Subsystem.
- 1200MHz (4800MHz Effective) Memory Clock.
- 230.4 GB/s Memory Bandwidth.
- 1536MB GDDR5 Memory.

HD5890 Is 25% faster Than HD5870
Release Date : End of March 2010. Price 399USD.
32nm Version of HD5890 is to be Released by Q4 2010 With Other 32nm Evergreen Models (HD5990
Included). Cheaper In Price.

AMD 32nm GPU Refresh by: Anonymous on 1/26/2010

By Q4 2010 AMD Will Refresh It's 40nm Evergreen GPU Familiy By Intreducing 32nm Models In The Evergreen Familiy. Performance For The 32nm GPUs Is Unknown Yet, But It Is Belived To Be Faster. As For Price, It Is Belived To Be Cheaper Than Current 40nm Models.

Here Are The GPUs To Be Relesed In Q4 of This Year.

32nm HD 5990 To Replace The 40nm HD 5970
32nm HD 5890 To Replace The 40nm HD 5870
32nm HD 5860 To Replace The 40nm HD 5850
32nm HD 5840 To Replace The 40nm HD 5830
32nm HD 5790 To Replace The 40nm HD 5770
32nm HD 5760 To Replace The 40nm HD 5750

In Q2 2011 AMD Will Interduce It's 6000 Series GPUs Using A Brand New Architecture Called "Northern Islands". The "Northern Islands" GPU Familiy Will Be Using 28nm Process Technology.

by: Anonymous on 1/24/2010
Fanboys make me laugh. Why love/hate a company that is just out for your money. Buy the products that do what they are supposed to do well and for a fair price. People that blindly follow ANYTHING are fools.
chill... by: Anonymous on 1/24/2010
The people here who are accusing BSN of shilling for Big Green are ignoring the fact that Theo Valich has done a number of interviews and articles on AMD silicon and their spinoff, Global Foundries. Also, if they had actually RTFA, things don't look so hot for Nvidia right now. (I will admit that BSN does, on occasion, post articles-- 'reviews'-- that look like a paraphrased press release...)

I'm rooting for Global Foundries to introduce some real competition in the ASIC marketplace, and that'll not only lower the prices of all major parts, GPUs included, if worse comes to worse (I like that term, 'Screwed the pooch', heh), I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Nvidia were to outsource some production to GF.

At any rate, Nvidia will be the only one to come out with an original architecture this year anyway, while ATI will continue to push its yields on its consumer GPUs. To the 'gamers' here, I'm sorry to say that while enthusiast GPUs may be where the innovation comes from, it's not a company's bread and butter. The real market are the high-yield SoCs, and Nvidia's going to make a real killing with Tegra 2, especially as the ARM market continues to expand along with Android, Chrome OS, and the multitude of online cloud services. Although die-hards may disagree with what they imagine the public will want, you cannot disagree with the way the entire computer industry is moving.

If there is any reason to fault the article, as has been pointed out, is that it doesn't make a good effort to label its numbers as 'speculation' rather than 'analysis.' Considering that very few hard numbers are publicly known about Fermi, these numbers must be taken with a grain of salt. However, it is also reasonable to assume that the numbers are not going to look good for Nvidia at the onset, and for this reason, there may not be any public hard numbers on certain aspects of production for months to come.

~ CryptoQuick
(PS-- please improve the comment system, for goodness sake)
by: Anonymous on 1/24/2010
AMD/Radeon forever
Dimensionally Challenged by: Anonymous on 1/24/2010
"nVidia Tegra 2nd Gen: Allegedly very good yields at 40nm process - then again, this is not a small die either."

Sorry, but the Tegra is a small die, less than 50mm².

You have in previous articles (http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/8/13/2nd-gen-nvidia-tegra-will-be-40025-faster-than-tegra-650!.aspx) been incorrectly asserting that the Tegra 2 die is larger than 144mm². I presume that comes from a misinterpretation of this slide from on old Tegra launch deck (http://forums.legitreviews.com/download/file.php?id=1459) which shows that the **package** area of the first Tegra SOC was 144mm².

There is a vast different between die size and package error. Please try and develop an elementary grasp about semiconductor fabrication and packaging technology before you write about it. This article is a case in point - it demonstrates you lack an even modicum of comprehension about the subject, and you come out of it looking either ignorant or deceptive, depending on your viewpoint.
Censorship by: Anshel Sag on 1/24/2010
We at BSN* do not censor posts other than for the sake of removing hateful and profane speech. We don't ban IPs from posting or any accounts from posting. What you encountered was a simple site error.
censorship? by: Anonymous on 1/23/2010
hmmm some articles not allowing comments, are we being censored? WTG BSN
NVIDIA Q4 by: Anonymous on 1/23/2010
Revenues were $481 million, down 46% sequentially from $898 million and down 60% from $1.2 billion year-earlier.

Net income was negative $148 million, well down sequentially from positive $61.7 million, and way down from positive $257 million year-earlier.

EPS (earnings per share) were negative $0.27, down sequentially from positive $0.11, and way down from $0.42 per share year-earlier.

SO MUCH ABOUT NVIDIA PROFIT.
...still not quite right by: Anonymous on 1/22/2010
Based on your numbers, "cost of a single Cypress ASIC to anywhere between $54-64 [70 to 60% yield]" and using your cost of $5000 per wafer, then you are saying that there are about 130 candidate Cypress die per wafer.

Based on published information, it looks like Cypress should have somewhere in the neighborhood of 160 candidate dies per wafer.

The only place I've seen the number 130 is your fantasy number, "Our original data cited that nVidia is able to put 130 dies on a single wafer", for Fermi.

Is it really that hard to write an accurate article?
by: Anonymous on 1/22/2010
Fermi is in the air
Everywhere I look around
Fermi is in the air
Every sight and every sound
And I don't know if I'm being foolish

So enjoy your Fermi only on internet.
"Truth to be told" = NV PR crap! by: Anonymous on 1/22/2010
Time for a reality check!

"Truth to be told, given that GF100 will probably beat both HD 5870 and HD 5970 in Tessellation and consumes less power than a HD 5970".

Let me say Wow to BSN on that! lol. Ok, Most people reading this article are gamers like me, new games will have DX11 features, one of them is tessellation. Tessellation will add significant eye candy to the experience, but it is NOT the WHOLE experience, so why this article is coming with that tessellation angle only? because that's the only good to say about the GF100 and I find that deceiving by BSN. Also, it very questionnable that the GF100 will beat a 5970 in tessellation only. That little snipet video NV showed at CES was compared to a 5870, where's the 5970? Way to go BSN! Keep channelling that Nvidea PR crap!
Nvidia Q3 by: Anonymous on 1/22/2010
I saw the article that showed in Q3 Nvidia made 73% more sales than the prior Q3, profit up substantially, and the Stock chart has been climbing substantially, over triple it's recent low several months prior.
So all this talk about Nvidia losing money amounts to some sick displaced crybaby fetish, since amd ati is the actual company that has been bleeding endless billions for years.
Without the intel bailout, amd ati lost another 938 billion for the year, their ati portion LOST MONEY.
We heard the same tired whine from the red fans about GT200, but as we have seen, the nvidia profits only INCREASED, while ati amd bled red, the whole time.
I think it's about time the deranged projectors take a look in the mirror, and face that horrible truth - ATI is a failing, money bleeding disaster still, and every time that scat tossing red fan screeds about a few dollars of percieved or faux saving on the near featureless ati cards, they are sealing the in the red doom of their red god. What a shame, really.
Don't worry about DX11 games, either, even though the ATI cards can't play the few they fail to work properly with at a decent framerate, the GF100 ABSOLUTELY KILLS WITH DX11 ENABLED and nvidia will be pushing the DX11 games into the channels, not ati, since ati can't afford to let it's single engineer working on the still not ready Batman Ark Asy AA code move onto another game. Yeah , ati's PR guy spilled those beans. One engineer working on it "his best guy" - the Batman aa for ati, and it's "not ready" not done, and "not guaranteed", but he "feels gamers deserve it".
LOL WOW ! LOL
In the mean time, enjoy the grey lined screens, the flickering, the must enable CCC overclock panel issues, the random crashing, the micro stuttering, and the near to zero framerate drop from the 50's or 60's with the VRM downclocking when someone "releases a missile" in game and brings red betty down to her knees, then facedown in the street. lol

by: Anonymous on 1/22/2010
nvidia died AMD/Radeon rule this world
Pity! by: Anonymous on 1/22/2010
What a pity!

ATi/AMD delivered the DirectX 11 experience to its fans months ago. nVidia couldn’t make it. It’s real, and it’s a tremendous defeat! That’s what happened, that’s the truth.

It’s called “Cost of Opportunity”. There’s no price to be the first to experience a ATi Radeon HD 5870 in its all glory, a single card crushing nVidia’s dual card GTX 295. And we’re talking about a heavy title such as Crytek Crysis @ 2560×1600.

According to Tom’s Hardware, nVidia GTX 295 simply didn’t work at that resolution. Pity again! Please, see for yourself.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeo n-hd-5870,2422-13.html?xtmc=crysis_2560×1600_gtx_295_buffer_ memory&xtcr=2

One of the paragraphs from this review says:

“Notice the missing result for Nvidia’s GeForce GTX 295 at 2560×1600 with 8xAA? That’s due to the card not having ample on-board memory to run that configuration (and the game not knowing any better than to keep it from trying). Grand Theft Auto gets around this by simply making resolutions unavailable if a graphics card doesn’t have a large enough frame buffer. Crysis crashes instead.”

GTX 295 not being able to run Crysis @ 2560×1600? Pity!

Fermi has got to be better and faster than Cypress. It’s an obligation for nVidia to build this in that way, since they had, at least, more time to conceive it.

And, as always, don’t be fooled: you’re going to hurt your pocket to have Fermi installed onto your RIG. Be prepared to pay the price. It happened with Cypress. It’s going to be the same with Fermi. And since, nVidia cards are always much more expensive than ATi/AMD’s, one Fermi card can reach as much as 750 bucks. Wait and see.

Take this weekend and go to your favorite retail store and grab your ATi Radeon HD 5870. It’s there, real. Just take it.

Fermi, humpf…maybe 3Q2010 you’ll get one. It’s just an illusion…a dream (that hasn’t come true…hehehehe…)

Cheers!
2% Yields by: Anonymous on 1/22/2010
I'm surprised to see that this rumor is still being repeated after being summarily debunked. It's based on a google mistranslation which showed up as 9 instead of November.

Sloppy reporting on all parts. Hopefully GF100 release will put and end to the faux controversy.
'Article' paid for by nVidia by: Anonymous on 1/22/2010
Enough said!
teo by: Anonymous on 1/22/2010
nabijen ti ovakvo novinarstvo nakurac...........
AMD increase revenue 18 % in Q4 2009 by: Anonymous on 1/21/2010
AMD reported revenue of $1.65 billion for the fourth quarter, a gain of 42 percent compared to the same period last year. The revenue beat estimates of analysts polled by Thomson Reuters, who expected revenue of $1.5 billion.

Thanks Fermi
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